• "Accommodations I"
• "That old devil race, &c."
• "The Gospel and the Gosselins"
• "As the Myths Abound, So Does Islamic Outreach"

Comments

[Benjamin Ady]

Thank you for linking the Post article on Islamic outreach. I found it helpful and inspiring. I want to be like Aida Mansoor.

[LeeQuod]

I'm tempted to point out that it would be difficult for you to be like her, Benjamin, because only women wear the hijab. But I'd rather ask, seriously, if you mean to say you want more dialogue on religion, or on discrimination based on religion, or just what.

My frustration with comparative religion as taught in the USA is that it starts with the default assumption that all religions are equal. If the Mansoors were Christians, trying this in an Islamic country, it would be a rather different story. A friend of mine is a Muslim convert to Christianity, pastoring here in this country, and he will not give out his contact information to those who seek him - he insists that *he* contact *them*, for the safety of his family and his congregation.

And I think you know how Christian churches fare in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon,...

It's one thing to say that all people are created equal, and that people don't have a choice to be raised in one tradition or another. It's another thing entirely to say that two different sets of beliefs can incite exactly the same behavior in all circumstances.

[Benjamin Ady]

Lee,

Are you saying that the best of Christianity is better than the worst of Islam? Are you saying that the mean (as in average) of Islam is scarier than the mean of Christianity? Seems to me that Aida is helping folks from different groups see each other as less scary, and judge one another's groups by the best each group has to offer, rather than the worst.

Does the idea of judging other groups by their best, rather than their worst, appeal to you at all? Does it seem like a viable way forward in terms of moving toward more peace and less war in the world?

[jason taylor]

"does the idea of judging other groups by their best, rather than their worst, appeal to you at all? Does it seem like a viable way forward in terms of moving toward more peace and less war in the world?"

It does, but it does not seem to me a viable way forward in moving toward more peace and less war in the world. It does however seem like a viable way for making more civility in the world.

While it is not unknown for wars to be caused by Wrath, It as at least equally common for it to be caused by Arrogance, Envy, Avarice, Lust, Gluttony, and even perhaps Sloth. Assuming all wars are feuds is a common mistake. Many are simply power struggles and the rivals have no particular animosity toward one another.

Be that as it may it is good to look upon other people in the best way possible consistent with prudence, simply because it is good to do so. Whether or not it reduces the number of wars.

[LeeQuod]

Benjamin Ady wrote: "Are you saying that the best of Christianity is better than the worst of Islam?"

Nope, I'm happy to compare Christianity's entire historical record alongside the record of any other religion, including the best and the worst of each. I'm convinced Christianity would shine like a beacon.

"Are you saying that the mean (as in average) of Islam is scarier than the mean of Christianity?"

Hm - not sure how one can average something like that with statistical validity. But in the USA Muslims have to obey U.S. law and U.S. social mores. Friends of mine were recently evicted from Kasakhstan for doing there exactly what the Mansoors are doing here. So across the world, yes - Islam is scarier than Christianity.

"Seems to me that Aida is helping folks from different groups see each other as less scary, and judge one another's groups by the best each group has to offer, rather than the worst."

Education is excellent, as long as it's not biased. If I want to teach Christianity, you'll insist (or at least Andy will) that I address the Crusades and the Inquisition, as well as televangelists and all the other recent and earlier scandals. Why should Islam get a free pass?

I've known Muslims who were wonderful people. Sounds like the Mansoors are wonderful people. I have no problem with accepting individuals. I *do* have a problem using the wonderful people as proxies for accepting everyone.

"Does the idea of judging other groups by their best, rather than their worst, appeal to you at all?"

Absolutely!

"Does it seem like a viable way forward in terms of moving toward more peace and less war in the world?"

Not at all. Jason nailed it (as he usually does), and can supply as much historical detail as you need to verify that it's been tried repeatedly and failed.

[jason taylor]

Well not exactly. I can however supply many examples to verify that it would not have made much difference whether or not it was tried.

[Benjamin Ady]

Jason and Lee Quod,

Would you guys describe your selves as not having a great deal of hope for us humans to make a lot of progress in terms of peace on earth apart from some sort of eschatalogical return of Christ thing?

My impression from your responses leaves me with the sense that working only with what we can see in the here and now, you're fairly pessimistic along these lines? Am I getting that right at all?

I refuse to believe it. I think we *can* make progress toward treating each other more civilly on a global basis. Maybe that makes me a bit of a crazy optimist. People like Aida Mansoor aren't as rare as one might imagine--that's my guess.

[Jason Taylor]

Yes, I would describe myself as that. For one thing attempts to make mankind peaceful hinge on the assumption that everyone will make himself peaceful at once. And attempts to better mankind as often make mankind worse.

Be that as it may I think changing ones personal behavior is more then hard enough and should not be undervalued.

[LeeQuod]

Benjamin Ady wrote: "Would you guys describe your selves as not having a great deal of hope for us humans to make a lot of progress in terms of peace on earth apart from some sort of eschatalogical return of Christ thing?"

As long as Group A has something that Group B wants (natural resources, freedom, whatever), or Group A has something that Group B *doesn't* want (decadence, legalism, whatever), then I believe peace on Earth is impossible. People's hearts are too corrupt to not take the route to violence.

People's hearts will cease to be corrupt when that eschatological return of Christ thing finally occurs.

Until then, Muslim men won't be able to watch the Olympics because all those women are baring their arms and legs. Islam could preach the same way Christianity does - to turn the channel - but historically they have preferred community activism, the same as Christians like James Dobson. I'm skeptical that either Dr. Dobson or the Muslims will anytime soon just throw up their hands and say "Hey, perform naked if you want, like they did in the ancient Olympic Games."

And I'm skeptical that Muslims are really all that willing to accommodate diversity. They certainly promote it while it benefits them, but once they gain acceptance in a society, diversity tends to rapidly disappear. I doubt that voters in largely Muslim communities favor gay marriage, for example. So I would expect to see more conflicts along the lines of Prop 8 in California. By promoting the acceptance of Muslims, liberals may well be undoing all the changes they have made to U.S. society. I'll do my best to not look amused.

[Jason Taylor]

What do we mean by acceptance. The thought crosses my mind that liberals will accept Moslems as-liberals. And if necessary will imagine them to be such.