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October 20, 2008

A Nation Divided: What Can We Do?

Statesfinal Politicians love to talk about how they are going to bring people together: this mantra has been at the heart of Barack Obama's message all along. It sounds nice; it's something we all wish for; but it's not likely to happen no matter who wins on November 4. Dennis Prager tells us why a unified America is a pipe dream in his recent column "There Are Two Irreconcilable Americas."

Quite simply, "Right and left do not want the same America." According to Prager, the Left wants an America that looks like Western Europe: pacifistic, socialistic, secular, and ruled by the United Nations. The Right does not. 

Prager lists other differences worth noting, but it's his conclusion that gives me chills given the specter of the Left taking over Congress, the Presidency, and (given enough time to appoint even more liberal judges), the Supreme Court:

"For these and other reasons, calls for a unity among Americans that transcends left and right are either naive or disingenuous. America will be united only when one of them prevails over the other. The left knows this. Most on the right do not."

(Image © U.S. News & World Report)

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Comments

Rolley Haggard

Thanks, Diane.

On a related theme, and for those of you who did not receive it, Dr. James Dobson's October letter (from Focus on the Family Action) closes with this: "Please (italicized for emphasis) share this with your friends and family." That certainly includes you guys here. Check it out.

http://www.citizenlink.org/pdfs/2008-10-c4newsletter.pdf

And this thought for the day -- "If complete dissolution is to be the ultimate fate of our great nation, and indeed, of all civilization, let it be in spite of what we did, not because of what we did not do."

Gotta believe there's still hope.

Diane Singer

Rolley, GREAT link to Dr. Dobson's newsletter. I'm passing it on to my friends, too. Yes, I'm still hoping. Who knows, maybe the "October Surprise" will be Joe the Plumber, Sen. McCain on Letterman, and Gov. Palin on SNL!! Wouldn't that be ironic, and lovely!!

Jason Taylor

The poor fellow was probably in a bad mood that day.
But in any case we are obliged to act as if it is not irreconcilable by virtue of the fact that we all recited the Pledge of Allegiance and a promise is a promise. To compare, no true northman would think much of a warrior who left his chieftain simply because the other warriors were squabbling over the booty.

Andy

I was at the Obama rally in Kansas City this weekend. 75,000 folks hopeful to see Barack Obama elected. It was a really happy, hopeful crowd.

Fred Phelps and his peeps were there, but we all just ignored them.

The crowd was really a pro-American marvel, every race, age, and economic level. The pledge (yes, we do say the Pledge, including the Under God part) was led by a veteran who runs one of the local Obama offices.

I look forward to seeing the diversity of the crowd that Senator McCain attracts today at the high school in nearby Belton. (I am not invited to that shindig...) I imagine it will be similar to that displayed at the GOP convention.

If Prager is right, I like our chances better than his, because the nation is becoming more urban and tolerant, and that means more like the 75,000 folks that met with Barack Obama in Kansas City this weekend.

becky

Prager is right. There are so many issues that deal with people's basic world views that we can never find a common ground. I am reading "A Magnificent Catastrophe" by Edward J. Larson about the first national election in 1800. So far I have learned that George Washington warned against the country developing political parties because he felt that they would be divisive. But, there was great division over the way the country would function with some wanting a democratic government and some wanting something more like a monarchy and when they weren't able to reconcile their differences they became very partisan. They spread nasty rumors and did lots of back room and back stabbing type dealing. The famous duel between Hamilton and Burr was a result of these differences. Maybe we should reinstate duels! Just kidding. But it seems that this partisanship stuff has a long history.

Jason Taylor

I hardly think we are becoming more tolerant; we are just shifting our intolerance to politics rather then the traditional intolerances. I often wonder if there are few people more intolerant then those who claim to be tolerant.

labrialumn

Tolerance of evil is no virtue.

And there are those of us who don't want to be made Europeanized "urban" Our ancestors left Europe for good reasons.

A map of the counties would be more accurate than that of the States, and it is interesting to note that the non-coastal States that are 'blue' are ones where ACORN has engaged in massive voter fraud.

I would most prefer the Obamans to repent and believe in the God of the Bible, and believe God. Barring that, that we would outnumber them and thus restrain evil. Barring that, an amicable separation between the coastal counties and the rest of the country is preferable to oppression and tyranny.

The fact that so many see Obama as messiah instead of the inhuman monster that any Christian or even most pre-Christian heathens would see someone who so strongly favored infanticde as being, shows how great the divide actually is.

Chris Clukey

Andy--

Has it ever occurred to you guys that when right wingers like me criticize "patriots" like Jack "I don't need a trial to find Marines guilty of murder" Murtha or Dick "America is like Nazi Germany or the Khmer Rouge" Durbin that doesn't mean we think every Democrat voter thinks like them? Yes, we know that you folks are patriots, that you serve in the military and know how to say the pledge (without putting your hands on your crotch, even...could one of you teach Senator Obama how to do that?) which is why it's so frustrating watching y'all vote for these hoplophobic clowns who see y'all as (at best) slightly higher on the evolutionary scale than we bitter clingers.

This sort of thing seldom seems to infect the right. For example, I don't know a single Republican guy who thinks he was being called a racist when Trent Lott got whomped for his comments about Strom Thurmond.

Andy

Labrialumn, you have rally bought the entire Hannity-Limbaugh package, I see. The vast majority of Obama supporters I know consider themselves to be sincere Christians. I imagine that it does make life simpler for you though, to be able to divide real Christians from fake ones by their political allegiances.

I have a suggestion for you though: instead of splitting up the Lower 48, you all could just move to Alaska. Then you could join the Alaska Independence Party (just as Todd Palin did,) and secede from the union. If you win the resulting civil war, you could then turn your new nation into a utopia populated only by real Christians. I promise, I would not lift a finger to stop you.

Gina Dalfonzo

Guys, I know politics gets all of us excited, but we need to tone down the rhetoric a little, on both sides. Thanks.

dennis babish

I don't know how someone can call themselves a "sincere Christian" and support a candidate that is pro-abortion and not pro-life.
There seems to be a disconnect to me.

Andy

Gina, perhaps you could ask this guy to tone it down a bit too:

"Rep. Robin Hayes (R-N.C.) has conceded that he did tell a North Carolina crowd that "liberals hate real Americans that work and accomplish and achieve and believe in God," even though he initially denied making such a statement."

Not only did he say it, he lied about saying it until Politico came up with the audio. But I imagine Hayes is one of the "real" Christians, so it's OK, right?

LeeQuod

Wouldn't it be great, Gina, if Andy (or any one of the other liberal Pointificators) would respond to what Prager said? I mean, does the American Left really want us to become more like Europe?

It'd be great if an articulate, thoughtful and courageous (enough to express themselves here, of all places) individual said either "Yes, that's indeed what we want and here's why", or "No, not all of us want that, and Prager is guilty of mischaracterization". It could spark a truly edifying interaction.

I think Chris can be convinced to pause long enough for that. (Besides, he has to take time to reload, eventually, irrespective of the capacity of his clip.)

Andy

Hey Lee. Thanks for the invite to Popintificate. I know someone will want to change the subject to abortion or gay marriage, but as a Liberal, I do think there are other issues out there to worry about.

Re the whole Europe thing: Is there nothing that Americans can learn from other nations, or are we so utterly awesome that the entire world should summarily adopt our form of religion, government, food, and entertainment?

This neo-con, knee-jerk foreign policy arrogance that our nation has adopted has done us no good on the world stage. The other current empires, the EU and China, are incrementally eclipsing our influence, in no small part because the second world countries are just sick of the "USA! USA!" chants they hear from our leaders.

That is one huge area where I see an Obama presidency succeeding. The last eight years have been horrific diplomatically. Barack Obama has, as General Powell said better than I ever could, the intellectual curiosity and temperament to greatly improve our stock overseas.

As far as what Prager thinks we Lefties want America to be: he's way off base. We want a minimum social safety net, so that my unemployed brother does not have to stay away from a doctor when he's ill. You guys call that socialism, we call it the Sermon on the Mount in action. We want a military that protects our borders and our vital interests but is not squandered to further idiotic neo-con dreams of "the end of history." And we want military hospitals that are the best our nation can offer, not moldy hell-holes. We want a government that is not beholden to a peculiar and insular version of Christianity, and yes, that government should be secular as our founders intended. We want the opposition political party to be one of ideas, as it was in the days of Buckley, who's own son has been evicted from the GOP yurt for supporting Obama.

We want a nation where we are not called traitors for holding an opinion that differs from right-wing orthodoxy. We want to work in an economy that is not rigged in favor of the Waltons and the big-oil oligarchs and the hedge fund charlatans.

So Lee, how's that for a start? And BTW, any response to Rep Hayes, and his being caught in a blatant lie? And if what he said is true, why would he deny saying it in the first place?

LeeQuod

Thanks, Andy. Since I think I hear the sound of cartridges going into magazines, I'll keep this brief. I've been to Europe, and while we might have things to learn from them, in most cases it's from bad examples. In particular, your unemployed brother might just find himself begging his congressman for an operation. The specter of people voting for the person who's best at strong-arming hospitals is not a pretty one.

I also remember that a Democrat, FDR, kept our military protecting our borders and our vital interests while the rest of the world caught fire. And the plan for 9/11 developed under a Democrat. So I'm concerned that we can no longer protect our borders from within them.

We could probably raise up a new Bill Buckley (miracles do happen), and that would be a good thing. But where would he gain a hearing - on the Fox channel? On talk radio? It seems that all other media outlets (except online and in some cases, print) are overtly hostile to even allowing conservative opinions to be voiced.

And I don't see anyone from the Left offering a way for the Right to gracefully work things out; it's capitulation or decapitation. So Prager seems to be correct that America's two political parties have irreconcilable differences, and that the survival of our nation is threatened not from without but from within.

OK, something just whizzed past my ear, and I think I heard a ricochet. See ya.

Jason Taylor

We want a nation where we are not called traitors for holding an opinion that differs from right-wing orthodoxy.
----------------------------------------

Do you indeed? I wouldn't mind a nation where my justice, charity, goodwill, and rationality is not questioned because I hold an opinion that differs from left-wing orthodoxy.

Jason Taylor

By the way, what is a Walton? I have never heard of that party before.

Andy

Lee: Having read a little about the FDR era (im a boomer, so I wasn't there) I recall that the mood of the entire nation in pre-war days was isolationist, and that FDR had to drag the country into any form of support for England until Pearl Harbor, so I disagree with your view on that.

I also disagree with your view of the media. Here's why: Joe Scarborough, MSNBC. Pat Buchanan, MSNBC. That guy who seems to be on CNN Headline News every time I flip through it, Glenn Beck. Candy Crowley, CNN. And a ton of others. Perhaps you see my point... The current media has been so brow-beaten by Limbaugh et al into "balance" that even the most unhinged right-wingers get plenty of time to speak. I cannot count the times when I have seen Rachel Maddow or another liberal on a panel facing off against two or even three conservatives. (Love her new show, by the way.)

Re 9/11: The plan to bomb the barracks in Beirut developed under the GOP deity, Ronald Reagan, so I think that we can dispense with that line. And I am not naive about our vital interests: in this world we need a global naval reach, a modern nuclear arsenal, and a sleek, effective military. No real Democrat is against any of those things. Just ask one of our local guys, Ike Skelton. What we want is the wisdom to lead that has been obviously lacking for eight years.

On the capitulation, decapitation thing: We recall the statements of Grover Norquist, who likened us to neutered animals, and who's aim is to drown government in the bath-tub. If that is the philosophy of the right, then yes, there can be no detente.

Jason: By the Waltons, I mean the family that owns WalMart. And I'll certainly stipulate to your honor and good will if you'll stipulate to my patriotism.

Gina Dalfonzo

I just want to make one quick point about one of your comments, Andy: Christopher Buckley was not "evicted." By his own admission -- despite having complained of being fired at first, as evidenced by the URL below -- he handed in his resignation as columnist (he still owns part of the magazine and sits on the board). Then he whined when Rich Lowry and Jack Fowler accepted it. Perhaps his offer was merely meant to be a grand gesture. But take it from me, editors and publishers are not mind-readers. When they're given a resignation, like most bosses, they consider it a resignation.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-14/sorry-dad-i-was-fired

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OWEwZmYwNDE0YWI4OGI2ZTZlN2EwYTBhNmZlZDliMjc=

Andy

Gina: Point taken and conceded. He related that in his interview with John Stewart last night.

David

I am somewhat new to the Point community, but I thought I understood it to be a place where people could examine events and the culture from a Christian worldview. There is not much evidence of that, with the notable exception of the evidently "liberal" guy. There are many, many quotes from and/or references to persons who have managed to get a role in the media circus, but very few quotes from the Bible or any other serious (time tested) spiritual thought leaders.

I was struck by the choices offered in the original article: "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" versus "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness". Are there no other choices? How about "Faith, Hope and Love"? Based on everything we know about God's interactions with His chosen people, what do you suppose He thinks about this earthly political arrangement that we call America? I don't see much evidence that He is overly concerned about the preservation of particular human institutions; a "remnant" of faithful people has been sufficient for His purposes.

Perhaps everyone needs to put their weapons down (whether that be a gun or a pen) and "be still and know that God is God".

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